Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: oppyate on May 02, 2012, 12:02 am
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I'm coming up on 9 months here on SR. Been Scammed Twice.
1st time was prior to The State of The Road Address when Scamming was rampant, but they got me with FE cause I was a Newbie.
The Road Address raised fees on All Transactions in order to reduce scamming yet still left the ability for Scammers to use FE. It was not Eliminated Entirely.
My second loss was recently and sure enough it was to a long term, well valued and established Vendor with over 500 Transactions. How did he get me? FE...He was sooo established I dropped my guard...even after all this time, being a Vendor myself and already having been Scammed before by the use of FE.
Sr can keep raising fees and saying they are banishing Scamming, but it wont occur until they Ban all types of FE.
oppy
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short answer: no
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Honestly doubt it~
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we dont need SR to ban FE
what we need is to STOP FEING OURSELVES..
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Just briefly imagine an honest vendors perspective: Happily shipping product to a customer with 0/0 buying stats? No way! There would be no honest vendor left sooner or later.
I agree something needs to be done about the whole issue, but ban FE entirely?
There's always two sides of the story
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I'm coming up on 9 months here on SR. Been Scammed Twice.
1st time was prior to The State of The Road Address when Scamming was rampant, but they got me with FE cause I was a Newbie.
The Road Address raised fees on All Transactions in order to reduce scamming yet still left the ability for Scammers to use FE. It was not Eliminated Entirely.
My second loss was recently and sure enough it was to a long term, well valued and established Vendor with over 500 Transactions. How did he get me? FE...He was sooo established I dropped my guard...even after all this time, being a Vendor myself and already having been Scammed before by the use of FE.
Sr can keep raising fees and saying they are banishing Scamming, but it wont occur until they Ban all types of FE.
oppy
It's your own fault you Marxist idiot who needs the state to jump in when you act like a dumb fuck.
Dont want to get scammed?
Then dont FE.
FE serves many purposes and many have much success with it. Hell alot of people are FE'ing in the Armory jsut at the chance to get an Armory item without registration.
Dont blame SR. Blame yourself.
No one but you clicked the buy button and agreed by FE'ing.
Its a little thing I like to call PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
Maybe the elites are right. With morons like you we obviously cant be left to do our own thing without their oversight.
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It's your own fault you Marxist idiot who needs the state to jump in when you act like a dumb fuck.
Dont want to get scammed?
Then dont FE.
FE serves many purposes and many have much success with it. Hell alot of people are FE'ing in the Armory jsut at the chance to get an Armory item without registration.
Dont blame SR. Blame yourself.
No one but you clicked the buy button and agreed by FE'ing.
Its a little thing I like to call PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
Maybe the elites are right. With morons like you we obviously cant be left to do our own thing without their oversight.
I pretty much disagree with everything you wrote here.
All markets require regulation. The idea that market forces will decide if FE is a good or bad thing is kind of short sighted at SR does not exist in a state of what economists call "perfect competition" where there is an almost infinite number of sellers selling a harmonious good at the market rate.
SR, in reality, exists in a state of "oligopoly" (competition of the few.) If you search a category via domestic sellers only you will often find only 5 or 6 per country (certainly this is true for weed in the UK). Sellers in this kind of market are sensitive to the practices of other sellers, so as getting the money ASAP is ion the interests of the seller, then as soon as one or two do this as standard practice then the others would follow suit.
Ask your self this, as a seller, if you could ask people to FE and other sellers were doing this then why wouldnt you also require FE?
Also ask this, if SR was in a state of perfect competition, that meaning that there were an unlimited number of domestic suppliers all selling the same quality goods at the same price, yet 1/2 required FE and 1/2 didnt then why, as a buyer, would you opt for FE? It does not help buyers in any way yet is a service that buyers pay for as escrow is included in the SR fees.
SR simply does not have enough sellers to be in perfect competition and therefore cannot operate on market forces alone. In any market where oligopoly occurs, regulation is required to mimic the environment customers would encounter under perfect competition. The very fact that sellers are able to ask and get people to FE shows that SR is not operating under perfect competition and therefore some degree of regulation from the site is required (as if it were in perfect competition noone would be buying from these sellers as there would be an unlimited supply of sellers offering the same product without requiring FE).
Without guaranteed escrow, what stops SR turning into another Topix? and what advantages does it have over a simple forum where people are invited to pay via bitcoin and all correspondence is done via tormail?
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OR what about a tiered FE system.
0 transaction history : 100% FE
<3 transactions: 75% FE (cover wholesale price and cost of shipping)
<5 transactions: 50% FE (cover wholesale price)
<6 transactions: 25% FE (cover shipping)
6+ transactions: 100% escrow.
With options for special orders to 50/50% FE/Escrow.
Just a thought. But really, I have never finalized early for any vendor. I only deal with vendors that use the escrow system. I haven't lost money yet and I have over 50 transactions. I am currently in my first resolution with a vendor that got arrested and skipped out having never shipped. We'll see how that goes.
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It's your own fault you Marxist idiot who needs the state to jump in when you act like a dumb fuck.
Dont want to get scammed?
Then dont FE.
FE serves many purposes and many have much success with it. Hell alot of people are FE'ing in the Armory jsut at the chance to get an Armory item without registration.
Dont blame SR. Blame yourself.
No one but you clicked the buy button and agreed by FE'ing.
Its a little thing I like to call PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
Maybe the elites are right. With morons like you we obviously cant be left to do our own thing without their oversight.
I pretty much disagree with everything you wrote here.
All markets require regulation. The idea that market forces will decide if FE is a good or bad thing is kind of short sighted at SR does not exist in a state of what economists call "perfect competition" where there is an almost infinite number of sellers selling a harmonious good at the market rate.
SR, in reality, exists in a state of "oligopoly" (competition of the few.) If you search a category via domestic sellers only you will often find only 5 or 6 per country (certainly this is true for weed in the UK). Sellers in this kind of market are sensitive to the practices of other sellers, so as getting the money ASAP is ion the interests of the seller, then as soon as one or two do this as standard practice then the others would follow suit.
Ask your self this, as a seller, if you could ask people to FE and other sellers were doing this then why wouldnt you also require FE?
Also ask this, if SR was in a state of perfect competition, that meaning that there were an unlimited number of domestic suppliers all selling the same quality goods at the same price, yet 1/2 required FE and 1/2 didnt then why, as a buyer, would you opt for FE? It does not help buyers in any way yet is a service that buyers pay for as escrow is included in the SR fees.
SR simply does not have enough sellers to be in perfect competition and therefore cannot operate on market forces alone. In any market where oligopoly occurs, regulation is required to mimic the environment customers would encounter under perfect competition. The very fact that sellers are able to ask and get people to FE shows that SR is not operating under perfect competition and therefore some degree of regulation from the site is required (as if it were in perfect competition noone would be buying from these sellers as there would be an unlimited supply of sellers offering the same product without requiring FE).
Without guaranteed escrow, what stops SR turning into another Topix? and what advantages does it have over a simple forum where people are invited to pay via bitcoin and all correspondence is done via tormail?
Nice try, but your analysis fails on 2 issues. First, you ignore that there are legitimate reasons for FE. It's not just buyers with 0/0 but there are an infinite number of circumstances that just make it infeasible for a vendor to ship a high value item and wait up to 17 days for payment. Not to mention that buyers not finalizing on time (after receiving their items) is an increasing problem. Banning FE and ignoring this legitimate issue will lead to people transacting outside the escrow/feedback system altogether, which is a worse outcome than status quo.
Second, a lot of people deal exclusively in escrow already. I've been a vendor here for a whole year now and I've never transacted outside escrow. Neither have I done so as a buyer. Many other people can attest to the same thing. Your analysis on how there is an oligopoly is drug vendors on SR is indeed true. But I think the difference between those who got scammed and those who didn't is that we are ok with not buying any drugs at all unless the vendor uses escrow. It is as simple as that. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BUY ANYTHING HERE. You do so voluntarily. And if you VOLUNTARILY put yourself in this position they you must take responsibility for it. Talking about oligopolies doesn't negate the fact that there is no gun to your head forcing you to buy.
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First, you ignore that there are legitimate reasons for FE.
There is no legitimate reasons to FE. SR fees include use of their escrow service. By FE you are paying for a service that you are not receiving. FE benefits only the sellers and robs the buyer of the escrow service he is paying for via SR fees.
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Banning FE and ignoring this legitimate issue will lead to people transacting outside the escrow/feedback system altogether, which is a worse outcome than status quo.
That is not a worse outcome.
If you operate outside of the feedback system, then you have no feedback.. people dont trust you and so you dont sell anything.
Basically it will result in the sellers who dont want to use escrow leaving SR and starting a new site that is like SR but dosent use escrow... which IMO wouldnt be a bad thing.
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I do a lot of business with new buyers with no stats, I never require FE and I have never been scammed. I have had one transaction go as far as auto finalizing. A lot of my customers finalize immediately without ever being asked to.
It strikes me that the possibility of scamming by a buyer is far, far, outweighed by the possibility of a vendor scamming and as such asking for FE should be banned.
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I'm coming up on 9 months here on SR. Been Scammed Twice.
1st time was prior to The State of The Road Address when Scamming was rampant, but they got me with FE cause I was a Newbie.
The Road Address raised fees on All Transactions in order to reduce scamming yet still left the ability for Scammers to use FE. It was not Eliminated Entirely.
My second loss was recently and sure enough it was to a long term, well valued and established Vendor with over 500 Transactions. How did he get me? FE...He was sooo established I dropped my guard...even after all this time, being a Vendor myself and already having been Scammed before by the use of FE.
Sr can keep raising fees and saying they are banishing Scamming, but it wont occur until they Ban all types of FE.
oppy
It's your own fault you Marxist idiot who needs the state to jump in when you act like a dumb fuck.
Dont want to get scammed?
Then dont FE.
FE serves many purposes and many have much success with it. Hell alot of people are FE'ing in the Armory jsut at the chance to get an Armory item without registration.
Dont blame SR. Blame yourself.
No one but you clicked the buy button and agreed by FE'ing.
Its a little thing I like to call PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
Maybe the elites are right. With morons like you we obviously cant be left to do our own thing without their oversight.
Totally agree that I'm in Idiot and it has been my own fault. Unfortunately, there are Hundreds more Idiots like myslef who find themselves really wanting a Popular Product and the only way the Vendor will Offer it is if The Buyer FE's. My question is, why not just always go out of Escrow? Make your T-Mart like Tony76 did. Very clever guy and he used SR's weaknesses to Nail a bunch of Idiots.
If Speed Limits are not posted at 55 or 65 on the Highways, there will be reckless people that would keep driving 120 plus until they crush some family.
Not say FE is a bad thing. It's just too much Power in the hands of a Sharp Scammer.
I started a Thread for "Idiots" to Post losees. This is my way of stopping FE.
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=21268.0
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Totally agree that I'm in Idiot and it has been my own fault. Unfortunately, there are Hundreds more Idiots like myslef who find themselves really wanting a Popular Product and the only way the Vendor will Offer it is if The Buyer FE's. My question is, why not just always go out of Escrow? Make your T-Mart like Tony76 did. Very clever guy and he used SR's weaknesses to Nail a bunch of Idiots.
If Speed Limits are not posted at 55 or 65 on the Highways, there will be reckless people that would keep driving 120 plus until they crush some family.
Not say FE is a bad thing. It's just too much Power in the hands of a Sharp Scammer.
I started a Thread for "Idiots" to Post losees. This is my way of stopping FE.
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=21268.0
I've been an idiot, too, but I just don't feel like there is any need to ban something that is strictly voluntary.
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@ OP - why the fuck should SR ban something because you allow because you choose to go out of the system that they built for your protection.
Like I said in other threads. DPR ain't your Dad and you ain't a kid. Take responsibility.
I only use FE for 2 things. 1 for no-to-low history customers (0-5) or if I were to buy something in for someone (electronics etc). Other than that there ain't much need IMO.
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I hate to just be an echo chamber for the points already made here, but seriously, SR admin has taken plenty of effort to warn people about the risk of finalizing early, and nobody is responsible but buyers who decide to FE, and banning it would be pointless. You shouldn't ever make an order here bigger than you're willing and able to loose; I hope that every one I make comes through but I expect it not to in the meantime. Guess what? 100% success rate so far, and from more orders than I'm comfortable admitting. I refuse to finalize orders unless the seller is willing to break up the order and let half of it stay in escrow. I've told vendors to cancel my orders otherwise, and guess what, it saved me from getting scammed.
Obviously OP is referring to tony, and I was always leery of that guy. I was one of his first customers and caught him in a lie on my first and only order with him. I repeatedly warned people about FE when he ran his sales, but there's herd behavior here to an extent that still shocks me. Every time there's been a big scam here, the burn victims always cry foul of admin and FE and make all kinds of bogus rationalizations that steer the blame everywhere else but from them. I just shake my head. Hopefully now that people have seen that even a #1 seller that would sell out on tickets to let buyers lick the salt from his balls can rip and run in a flash, maybe it sets a precedent that people can learn from. Honestly, I'd take the other side of that bet any day though, because it's always the same old story here, and people are dumb as fuck, no offense. They'll literally line up and give their coins away if they see enough other people doing it. Anyway here's my tony conspiracy theory: he planned to have a limited run on SR because it's a lot safer to pop in, make a killing, and disappear than it is to try and run a steady business on here, during which time LE could track you down. Knowing he was going to dip out at some point anyway, why not walk away with a few extra thousand bitcoins? Sure, it's morally questionable, but so is selling heroin...it doesn't necessarily attract mother teresa types, nomsain? The key lesson here is INCENTIVES.
For what it's worth, here's Nikodym's two rules for success on SR:
1. Don't be desperate.
2. Make sure the vendor's incentives are aligned with yours.
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OR what about a tiered FE system.
0 transaction history : 100% FE
<3 transactions: 75% FE (cover wholesale price and cost of shipping)
<5 transactions: 50% FE (cover wholesale price)
<6 transactions: 25% FE (cover shipping)
6+ transactions: 100% escrow.
With options for special orders to 50/50% FE/Escrow.
Just a thought. But really, I have never finalized early for any vendor. I only deal with vendors that use the escrow system. I haven't lost money yet and I have over 50 transactions. I am currently in my first resolution with a vendor that got arrested and skipped out having never shipped. We'll see how that goes.
+1
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I pretty much disagree with everything you wrote here.
All markets require regulation.
Then the answer to YOUR problem is simple.
Go use a regulated market, using a regulated debt based system of credit/currency so The State can protect you.
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Then the answer to YOUR problem is simple.
Go use a regulated market, using a regulated debt based system of credit/currency so The State can protect you.
This is a regulated market, it has admin staff, support staff, listing fees, an escrow system, certain goods are prohibited, there are policies for buyers, policies for sellers, there s a feedback system, buyer and seller stats are provided, it even has its own messaging system.
This is, by far, a more regulated market than buying drugs on the street; how many times have you ever filled out a feedback form after buying from a street dealer?
I really don't see how you can see this as anything other than a regulated market.
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Then the answer to YOUR problem is simple.
Go use a regulated market, using a regulated debt based system of credit/currency so The State can protect you.
This is a regulated market, it has admin staff, support staff, listing fees, an escrow system, certain goods are prohibited, there are policies for buyers, policies for sellers, there s a feedback system, buyer and seller stats are provided, it even has its own messaging system.
This is, by far, a more regulated market than buying drugs on the street; how many times have you ever filled out a feedback form after buying from a street dealer?
I really don't see how you can see this as anything other than a regulated market.
You are concentrating on 2 words instead of the entire context of the post.
I never stated this wasnt a regulated market.
the point of my posts was that what you want does not exist here.
dont buy from sellers who require FE if you disagree with FE.
its simply none of your business what they do because you arent buying off them.
I believe you do want what they are selling though and are trying to tell them how to sell to you, but since that didnt work you are trying to get the state to tell them for you...
my my my what a crafty little marxist you are.
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I Literately would FE rather than ruin my stats, so from now on I try to be very careful who I buy off. So unless the whole system changes I'll rather be ripped off then ruin my stats.
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I think its more that the customers need to learn to not finalize early. Im constantly seeing feedback saying "FE"..when will they learn? Escrow is here for a reason, USE IT!
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First, you ignore that there are legitimate reasons for FE.
There is no legitimate reasons to FE. SR fees include use of their escrow service. By FE you are paying for a service that you are not receiving. FE benefits only the sellers and robs the buyer of the escrow service he is paying for via SR fees.
How about the fact that Bitcoin prices fluctuate so much venders can lose money if it takes 17 days for them to get paid
How about the fact that in order for many venders to keep up with their stock they need to get paid right away. They can't just loan use drugs and then get money a week or two after it. It also takes a long as time to wash your bitcoins and sell them all out without getting caught.
How about the fact that new buyers can very easily scam venders without the FE system.
You people need to stop trying to make this site more difficult for the venders because you make stupid choices. This site exists because of the venders they are taking the risks and they are reason we come here. Buyers will go anywhere they have very little to loose when ordering a gram of weed with a fake name to a potentially fake address.
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This is why I'm glad I have the opportunity to browse the forums and get an idea of the personalities behind the listings.
Knowing who you are buying off of is and their reputation in real time is an excellent way to determine whether or not you will be scammed.
Personally I would like to at least have some interaction with a vendor, via thread or detailed post, so I can get an idea of who I'm buying from and what their intentions are.
My goal is wide spread local distribution of some potent products so finalizing early and getting scammed on a bulk shipment cannot happen.
Therefore browsing the forums [and seeing whose handing out samples :) ] is a great way to get an idea on whose honest or at least trying to be.
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I have no issue doing an FE for a vendor I have had several successful transactions with in order to help them out financially. It is amazing how quickly the sums add up when you are selling on a global basis. When I have done this I have been rewarded with heavy shipments. The vendors I have communicated with have all had problems with new buyers so I gladly give them the upper hand when dealing on SR. I've cruised enough shady parts of towns in 30 years of "expressing my freedom" and been in positions where I have wondered if I would be killed in the process. I'll gladly chance a few hundred dollars over dark alleys.
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In my eyes finalizing early is no different than going out of escrow.
Once you finalize the transaction is final and there is no safety net for vendor excuses why you never received your order.
:)
nomad bloodbath
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Wow OP, listen at yourself! You're turning into the same people that SR stands against!
BAN THIS, TAX THAT, REGULATE THIS, DO THAT
Wow, just... wow.
When it comes down to it, if the buyer does FE, that is his right. There are multiple warnings about it, so buyers know that it is not reverseable. If he doesn't want to FE, then the buy can find another person to do business with. Its that simple.
I don't really see an issue at all with FE as long as the vendor is reputable. Most of the time F'ing E goes off just fine. You might think it seems like everyone is scamming, but its only a very very small fraction of sellers.
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OP I'd quite like to see your adoption papers, yano the ones where DPR adopted you and as such became your legal guardian and thus responsible for you and your decisions lol.
Biggest irony is if DPR was your Dad I doubt he would be responsible for your drug buying habits anyway.... not many parents tell their kids how to buy drugs properly.
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I say ban it so new guys like me can have a chance at making a purchase without getting scammed.
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I say ban it so new guys like me can have a chance at making a purchase without getting scammed.
I say we ban people who decide to step outside a system that was created for the sole purpose to protect said person despite the frequent warnings by all the staff and then decide to bitch about it.
However....that would be undemocratic.....and it would mean I couldn't make sarcastic comments like this....
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I say ban it so new guys like me can have a chance at making a purchase without getting scammed.
I say we ban people who decide to step outside a system that was created for the sole purpose to protect said person despite the frequent warnings by all the staff and then decide to bitch about it.
However....that would be undemocratic.....and it would mean I couldn't make sarcastic comments like this....
Well said Lim,
Not to mention the fact it actually IS against the rules for newer sellers like myself to demand FE from buyers... Only established sellers can ask for this service, if you don't agree, don't buy from them, it really is that simple!
V.
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I agree that SR needs to ban FE. Any real vendor who is honest will not be requiring it or asking for it. It seems simple to me. Why not just take down the listing if you don't have the stock to sell it or the cash to cover all the cost of offering it and shipping it on an escrow basis? I mean, they will be paid, the money is tied up in escrow so the buyer can't spend it. And the vendors should not send a product that wasn't honestly advertised. I mean, if a vendors page says 99% pure then that is what it needs to be. If it's 50 to 60 percent then they need to be honest and say that.
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I'm locking this thread because essentially this is just people rehashing their griefs over and over because they got jacked by scammers.
Conclusion is simple - Don't FE.
Locked.